that's what [strike]s[/strike]he said

[18:30] Jesse: modus ponens
[18:30] Jesse: google it
[18:30] Jesse: :P
[18:40] Jesse: we use this constantly in my philosophy class
[18:41] Jesse: if you have the front of a statement, you can assume that it will lead to the back
[18:41] Jesse: If it does not, it is technically an invalid argument
[18:41] Jesse: ALTHOUGH
[18:41] Jesse: P is not the ONLY way to get to q
[18:41] Jesse: Q
[18:41] Jesse: but P WILL always lead to Q
[18:41] Jesse: P and Q are symbols standing for word argument parts
[18:42] Jesse: IF joe eats, then joe gets fat
[18:42] Jesse: P = Joe eats
[18:42] Jesse: Q = Joe gets fat
[18:42] Jesse: P will lead to Q
[18:42] Jesse: but P isn't the only way joe will get fat
[18:42] Jesse: aka Q
[18:42] Spartan094: If Brandon gets money, then Brandon gets M38
[18:42] Spartan094: P = Brandon gets money
[18:42] Spartan094: Q= Brandon gets M38
[18:42] Jesse: yep :D
[18:42] Jesse: BUT
[18:43] Jesse: getting money isn't the only way
[18:43] Jesse: you could technically steal it
[18:43] Jesse: and get to Q
[18:43] Jesse: right?
[18:43] Spartan094: technically yes
[18:43] Spartan094: but then have the law on me 
[18:43] Spartan094: nope
[18:43] Jesse: but if you DO get money
[18:43] Jesse: you WILL get the m38
[18:43] Spartan094: yep
[18:43] Spartan094: no doubt about it
[18:43] Jesse: this is the base foundation for any argument really
[18:43] Jesse: there are other logical moves
[18:43] Jesse: Modus Tollens
[18:44] Spartan094: ffffff stop
[18:44] Spartan094: wait
[18:44] Spartan094: Modus Tollens is like
[18:44] Spartan094: the exact opp of the other word
[18:44] Spartan094: basicly
[18:44] Spartan094: If P, then Q
[18:44] Spartan094: Not Q
[18:44] Spartan094: Therefore, not P
[18:44] Spartan094: yes?
[18:44] Jesse: yeah
[18:45] Jesse: if you do NOT have Q
[18:45] Jesse: then P didn't work
[18:45] Jesse: so it's not valid
[18:45] Spartan094: exactly
[18:45] Spartan094: right now
[18:45] Jesse: meaning you DON'T have P
[18:45] Spartan094: it's Modus Tollens
[18:45] Jesse: I think you would do well in my class
[18:45] Jesse: it's tougher than AP physics
[18:45] Jesse: at certain times
[18:45] Spartan094: meh im in Concepts of Physics to blow off an easy science credit
[18:45] Spartan094: and it's not like Concepts at all
[18:46] Spartan094: it's more near AP im like
[18:46] Spartan094: wuuut
[18:46] Spartan094: btw
[18:46] Jesse: There's also Double Negation (DN) which is used as a double negative
[18:46] Jesse: it's like a math problem,
[18:46] Jesse: joe is not not fat
[18:46] Jesse: so he is fat
[18:46] Jesse: that's an easy one
[18:46] Spartan094: not not cancle each other
[18:46] Jesse: but you have to be able to recognize it
[18:46] Jesse: yeah exactly
[18:47] Jesse: as long as you have an even number of nots
[18:47] Jesse: it will be possitive
[18:47] Spartan094: not not = +
[18:47] Spartan094: not not not = -
[18:47] Spartan094: wai
[18:47] Spartan094: also 
[18:47] Jesse: wut
[18:48] Spartan094: Modus Tollens is right now
[18:48] Spartan094: but by Nov 22
[18:48] Spartan094: roughly
[18:48] Spartan094: it should turn into modus ponens
[18:48] Jesse: hehe
[18:48] Spartan094: if not
[18:48] Spartan094: then I failed
[18:48] Spartan094: then it will be Dec 25
[18:48] Jesse: and your argument is invalid
[18:48] Jesse: :D
[18:48] Jesse: aka your life
[18:48] Jesse: :o
[18:48] * Spartan094 ok
[18:48] * Spartan094 meme
[18:48] Spartan094: lol
[18:49] Spartan094: right now the argument is invalid
[18:49] Spartan094: but
[18:49] Jesse: no, it's just modus ponens technically
[18:49] Jesse: cause
[18:49] Jesse: ~
[18:49] Jesse: means
[18:49] Jesse: NOT
[18:49] Jesse: so
[18:49] Spartan094: brandon does not not have m38
[18:49] Spartan094: :haw:
[18:49] Jesse: ~P -> ~Q
[18:49] Spartan094: stop this is the most work I did today
[18:50] Spartan094: stoooooop
[18:50] Spartan094: :>
[18:50] Jesse: you don't have P (money) so you don't have Q (gun)
[18:50] Spartan094: but theres always a way to change P to get Q
[18:50] Jesse: yep
[18:50] Jesse: those are premises
[18:50] Jesse: facts
[18:50] Jesse: that you assume
[18:50] Jesse: do you have money or not
[18:50] Jesse: that's what the premises are
[18:51] Jesse: this is basic logic
[18:51] Jesse: like i said
[18:51] Jesse: you would probably do well
[18:51] Jesse: you learnt it quick
[18:51] Spartan094: hth I lived in California and was in the school system for sometime
[18:51] Spartan094: so I know thingsss
[18:52] Jesse: there are longer arguments too
[18:52] Jesse: like
[18:52] Jesse: P = money 
[18:52] Jesse: Q = gun
[18:52] Jesse: R = kill someone
[18:52] Jesse: S = jail
[18:52] Jesse: using modus ponens
[18:52] Jesse: if you get money
[18:52] Jesse: you will go to jail
[18:52] Spartan094: LOL
[18:52] Spartan094: this is how it is right now
[18:52] Spartan094: if I had the gun
[18:53] Spartan094: If brandon has money, then brandon gets m38, then avoid my dad knowing I have it, and S could be anything
[18:54] Spartan094: that is if I had the gun before Nov 22
[18:54] Jesse: S would be you don't get caught
[18:54] Spartan094: S I would be caught
[18:54] Jesse: uhm
[18:54] Spartan094: S I would have to sell gun
[18:54] Spartan094: S I would need to destory the gun
[18:55] Spartan094: S I would need to give it to my dad
[18:55] Spartan094: S I would go to jail 
[18:55] Spartan094: err
[18:55] Spartan094: S I could have gun
[18:55] Spartan094: keep* not have
[18:57] Spartan094: basicly in a perfect situation this would work
[18:57] Spartan094: If brandon has money, then brandon gets m38,  avoid my dad knowing I have it before Nov22, then I am able to keep gun
[18:57] Spartan094: because I wanna disguise the M38 as a b-day present from a random friend of mine
[18:58] Jesse: symbolizing that would be like
[18:58] Jesse: P brandon gets money
[18:58] Jesse: Q brandon gets gun
[18:58] Jesse: that's a statement
[18:58] Jesse: then we go to another
[18:58] Jesse: IF brandon canhide it
[18:58] Jesse: then he can keep it
[18:58] Jesse: S  brandon can hide it
[18:59] Jesse: T brandon can keep it
[18:59] Spartan094: were the hell did T come from
[18:59] Spartan094: were did R go
[18:59] Jesse: a
[18:59] Jesse: i skipped R
[18:59] Jesse: way to make such a basic mistake
[18:59] Jesse: LOL
[18:59] Spartan094: :<
[18:59] Jesse: R brandon can hide it
[18:59] Jesse: S brandon can keep it
[19:00] Spartan094: T everybody is happy except my mom
[19:00] Jesse: since modus ponens works all the way
[19:00] Jesse: from P we can get S
[19:00] Jesse: so the conclusion is S
[19:00] Spartan094: makes sense
[19:01] Spartan094: P brandon gets money
[19:01] Spartan094: Q brandon gets gun
[19:01] Spartan094: R brandon hides gun
[19:01] Spartan094: S brandon presents gun as bday gift
[19:01] Spartan094: T  brandon can keep it
[19:02] Jesse: mm
[19:03] Spartan094: thats in a perfect situation
[19:03] Spartan094: mind that
[19:03] Jesse: yeah
[19:03] Jesse: aka the soundness of the argumnet
[19:03] Jesse: do you agree with the facts in the first place
[19:03] Spartan094: ye
[19:03] Jesse: so far you're assuming that if you get money
[19:03] Jesse: you will get the gun
[19:03] Jesse: ASSUMING that you do
[19:04] Jesse: you get the gun
[19:04] Jesse: valid argument
[19:04] Jesse: sound? no
[19:04] Jesse: ∴
[19:04] Jesse: aw
[19:04] Spartan094: assuming
[19:04] Jesse: doesn't work
[19:04] Jesse: the Therefore symbol
[19:04] Spartan094: .-.
[19:04] Spartan094: if im assuming it's not 100% valid
[19:04] Jesse∴: yeah
[19:05] Jesse∴: Validity is pretty unquestionable
[19:05] Jesse∴: soundness is subjective
[19:05] Jesse∴: like
[19:05] Jesse∴: God
[19:05] Jesse∴: not everyone believes in him
[19:05] Spartan094: dont start that argument lol I hate this
[19:05] Spartan094: its like my friend who says the earth is 6000 years old
[19:05] Jesse∴: Then you gotta know paradox
[19:06] Jesse∴: when you contradict yourself
[19:06] Jesse∴: if there is EVER a paradox
[19:06] Jesse∴: an argument is invalid
[19:07] Jesse∴: currently
[19:07] Jesse∴: in my class i am at the rank of master logician
[19:08] Jesse∴: the other students (except 4 other MLs) try out to join us
[19:08] Jesse∴: we question their knowledge
[19:08] Jesse∴: and see how they would argue certain points
[19:08] Jesse∴: we ask basic things too
[19:08] Jesse∴: l;ike
[19:08] Jesse∴: what is modus ponens
[19:08] Jesse∴: give an example
[19:08] Jesse∴: double negate this state ment: Joe is fat
[19:08] Jesse∴: they'd just have to say joe is not NOT fat
[19:08] Jesse∴: and so he is fat
[19:09] Jesse∴: we vote on whether we think they're good enough to become master
[19:09] Jesse∴: yes or no
[19:09] Jesse∴: and the votes must be unanimous
[19:09] Jesse∴: if we all vote yes
[19:09] Jesse∴: they automatically become master
[19:09] Jesse∴: then more try out
[19:09] Jesse∴: as more masters arrive
[19:10] Jesse∴: the harder it is to rank up because there's a bigger chance one will say NO
[19:10] Jesse∴: we call these "Logic Trials"